I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? Thank you! However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. Here is where I part company with much of Christian ideology, and heres why: Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. I am not trying to argue doctrine, because that is not my or anyone elses business here. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. Olson made the point that it was his goal to represent Calvinism in a way that Calvinists would agree with his characterizations, if not with his conclusions. Their scholarship seems smug and oddly ineffectual (quoted by one mother) and yes, it later became apparent that The Way was actually doctrinally aberrant and yet through this article you were drawn to Jesus, so maybe this suggests God sometimes uses unlikely means to create new believers? Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. Im not always that good at explaining things well. Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. To me, there is a huge difference. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. I gotta second numos motion. God is NOT in control. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. I spent quite a while in these neo-Calvinist, Piper, hipster fundamentalist, etc. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. Why didnt he write a short book on a more important subject, like Robert Burtons The Anatomy Of Melancholy, written after Calvins death? And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. CALVIN! With a long-dead Calvin as Cult Leader? Ill have to look that one up. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; However, they are limited, just as we are. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Thats why I wrote If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong.. Thanks for the recommendation. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. There was a reason we (the US) put in a Constitutional Amendment to term limit the president. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. I can see why many walk away . etc. (Putting it mildly!!!). Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . I think that is biblical. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. Do you share these thoughts? I just ordered the book! Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. If you mean that those that God does not elect to save will definitely be condemned yes, since there is no other way they can be saved, they, in a sense, are elected to be condemned for their sins. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. In SGM, most of us were pretty demure. Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? Both my husband and I knew the difference at this point and began to look for another church in Dallas which we found in Bent Tree Bible Church. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. Declarations of faith. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. who needs systems & neat little boxes? I might get around to it, at some point. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. Best Non Calvinist Systematic Theology -Reviews With Ratings Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. It was you! So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. I am a new Methodist pastor, a woman who has a great deal of respect for people who love the Lord and are serious about their study. * Okay, end of sermon. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. I need it. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. Righteousness: Imputed? I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. Paul teaches that it is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28), Page 80: In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. Most churches teach Arminian theology. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. Ive tried to suss out how a good, all powerful God can exist at the same time as evil, and I just dont have an answer. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. I am not faulting anyone or saying that Calvinists are lazy. Nope, not a Cal. JeffS we were writing at the same time. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . (Well, maybe those who are committed to doing evil to others arent asking those questions, but). I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. But something has changed in the last number of years. From the Calvinist point of view, this part of their doctrine is the one that they can use to get along with . To breath it. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. Ive become a more capable musician as a result. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. I was blessed to be in some wonderful, intellectually stimulating churches. Anywaythats fine. The theology is weak. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? I think people are blaming a theology when the real evil is in the hearts of men. The seeds of justification by doctrine were sown a long time ago. Oy. In some respects we all do that. CALVIN! Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival What content does your faith have?. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Nope. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. We are not monolithic. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. Recommendations for Non-Calvinistic Resources from - RadioPublic I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Ill have to look that one up. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. Systematic Theology Comparison Chart - Best Bible Commentaries Weeps with you. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. Maybe Im wrong on that. Sproul Steve Lawson Voddie Bachham Wayne Grudem People Guilty Of Greatly Spreading The False "Free Will" Gospel: Bill Bright Billy Graham Charles Finney It was you! Reformed theology teaches that God in His grace and mercy has chosen to redeem a people to Himself, delivering them from sin and death. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. He discusses the rogue molecule that people bring up here a lot and says that if a single molecule where outside of Gods power, then it could thwart his will. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. After all, you could be wrong. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. whats wrong with mess anyway? I do not know. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! We are human, after all and I think all humans, from the beginning of time, have asked these questions, not just monotheists. Yet Calvin (and Luther Im Lutheran) were fallible and sometimes very sinful men. The bullying was behind the scenes. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! And no, I did not. On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. I dont know. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. Hes describing man, not God. Ed was not so big on doctrine. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. CALVIN! I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Calvinism Vs. Arminianism - Definition and Comparison - Learn Religions Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. Im sure no one here would like someone to denounce their beliefs by stating them in a way that they dont accept. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. Thats misrepresenting my heart, Argo! Nope. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Im sure many of us can point out similar starts in our own Christian lives where we later realised that some of the things we were taught were not quite Scriptural, and yet through certain people we came to Christ. The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. I trust him because I understand his loving nature. I used try but I have given up. Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? I have worked with you and at least a handful of other Calvinists who truly defend the abused/oppressed and I am glad to call you friend. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. I actually returned here wondering if you would even let my comment stand, considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine! He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. If it does, then Im find with that. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. Please, please, please, keep us posted on your son in law. 96:3; John 17:1 ). I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. Might we call what youre describing love? He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Holds you and strokes the back of your head. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. Of course you are. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. He shouldnt be let out of his cage yet. . Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. Here's The Point: Calvinists and Non-Calvinists in the SBC Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? You are free to jump back in and even things out, Jeff . It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Going to church in the north during those days was different. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. There is something that has been horribly misinterpreted in the verse about All things work together for good..etc It has almost created a cult of catastrophe. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. Churches that sever the root of truth may seem to flourish for a season, but they will wither soon, or turn into something besides a Christian church. The larger discussion is one I think those who wish to explore this issue would find interesting, but I simply cannot quote all of it (and I hope its OK to quote as much as I do here- if this will create legal issues for the blog, please strike the comment). Along with the traditional stuff, I have the definitive collectio of Star Trek ornaments including the Borg Cube which says (when turned on) We are the Borg. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! I understand the desire for them, I respect the way that they are conceived, and there are parts of them that I think very useful, but as a whole, they are too small for the God I now know. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . . @ Daisy: This is what some people have heard their entire life. The response to an authoritarian and oppressive environment is not to create another one where Calvinism is not tolerated. System- & neat-little-box-free. For a son to commit suicide? Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. @ Steve D: Jesus wept. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. Maybe I need to learn how to live with it better. Here are a few more (not necessarily Arminian but non-Calvnists): John Wycliffe, Vincent Taylor, John McClintock, Thomas Coke, C.S. I tend to doubt it but who knows. This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. [footnote]For more on what Calvinism espouses, see https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D. How to Spot a Calvinista Pastor - Are These Some of the Clues? The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. @ Julie Anne: I didn't know what I should read first as I attempted to learn more. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Where we end, he begins. Reformed. Baptists and Their Theology - Baptist History This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world.. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Pg 75 Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. . Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? I hadnt thought of it that way. 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians - FamousFix List What content does your faith have? Association of Related Churches I immediately connected with reader Oasis and it left me sobbing. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). But I doand I understand where Jeff S is coming from here.
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